From one skier to another since 2007.
So you all know the story of my crash this summer and getting back on the horse just last week for my last ski of the season which went very well. My coach and I had a discussion about how we'll approach next season and we talked about my ongoing struggle with the wake at 15 off. I am skiing a D3 Custom X with double boots. Again, as I have previously posted I really seem to have trouble overcoming the fear of the wake and having OTF crashed on my offside. So my coach is suggesting that we work on offside pulls but at 28 off to minimize the wake. What do you think of this as a training approach?
Printer-friendly versionIt's my frist time back on FifteenOff since last year and I figured I'd start a new diary detailing where I'm at this year.
Basically, I spent the winter thinking about my body position in the wake pulls and when I went out for my first few skis in May it seemed that all that thinking paid off a bit. I made up my mind that I was simply going to just "do" all that I've been told and read about regarding the stacked position in the wake pull. I found that really emphasizing the "pushing out of the chest" really seemed to help. In other words, when I pushed my chest out to the point that I felt like I probably looked stupid I actually was just right. This tells me that the correct position is going to "feel" awkward for some time to come. Several things happened...my hips came up much closer to the handle and my ski stayed on edge through the wakes much better...at least on my onside.
But I'm still having a problem with my offside. It seems that no matter how hard I try to "lock in" the position (shoulder blades back, chest proud, arms straight and touching sides, hips up to the handle) as soon as I hit that first wake I let my shoulders come forward and well, then it just deteriorates. I'm still stronger than last year and maybe not an OTF crash about to happen everytime but I just can't seem to stop doing this. For some reason I seem to have an ingrained fear of the wakes on my offside but on my onside I can pull like crazy and no issues. Any idea what I can do about this?
I am shadowing at 15 off, 32 mph but just barely.
Thanks,
Don
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A couple of things come to mind:
The force applied should not feel excessive.
Think of square the hips behind the handle...ie the rope line should basically split your body at the hips area...
Trailing arm pressure (with some openess) should put your hips where they should be.
Don't be in a hurry, slow off the handle, slow on the handle. Don't lean until the free hand gets back on the handle....then don't be in a hurry to load.
We all make this sport harder than it needs to be.
The turn is not a rotation...rotating the shoulders drives your hips the wrong way. Stay open and don't be in a hurry to finish the turn.
If some of this confuses you, don't hesitate to ask for clarification, most of it is counter-intuitive.
Thanks BD. I think that the turns are a separate issue and I know that I rush it sometimes. But my problem has nothing to do with the turns. I start my session with some pullouts (and hold) beside the boat to feel the position and I can do that quite well on both on- and offside. So, being LFF I can pull out and hold on the starboard side of the boat with lots of edge and just "hang my body mass" off the rope and I feel really comfortable. My coach says that my body position when I do this is perfect. So then I swing over to the left side and edge the ski (gently at first) into my offside pull. I am trying to increase my lean to max right behind the boat and not "get in too hard too fast". I think I am doing all those things. But here's the thing...as soon as I get near that wake something in my head says "back off...danger zone". Of course, I know that backing off is the last thing I should do and that this can easily result in an OTF crash which I've had my fill of...
BD, I feel that this whole thing is in my head...but how to change that?
How much angle are you trying to ski with through the wake? 45 degrees should be the most you try to ski with. What I would do in your shoes is start with a 10 degree crossing at slow speed get comfortable and gradually increase the angle and intensity and try to never max load the rope.
The turns can absolutely affect your crossings. If you lead with your shoulders either by rotating or dipping your shoulders, your core will be separated from the handle. Try to turn with you upper body vertical and slide the upper body behind the handle...but not in a hurry. I went back and looked at your videos and you tilt your shoulders in to start your movement.
Not sure this will help because I'm still figuring this out too. However, instead of running at 32 and shadowing the balls maybe slow the boat down and try to make them. In order to do that you'll need to pull longer and that might help you get the feel for it. Trying to get a slight bend in the knees/ankles without bending the hips is a bit weird at the beginnig but someone put it to me like this: Drive your knees across the wakes. A drill (open water) that was suggested to me was to pull out all the way to the side of the boat and glide untill the boat "catches up" then pull hard the WHOLE way across to the other side of the boat untill you can't feel the boat pulling any more. Then repeat many times. This will help practice the lean position in addition to what you already do. The last thing that helped me....honest to goodness...was to have a coach in the boat yelling at me to reach and pull. The notion of "pull dammit and get your butt to the next ball" helps. Not that your over pulling with your arms but it gives you a kick in the pants. Lastly, keep the handle low and to your hips and this will avoid OTFs. There are a few OTFs somewhere in the previous videos that I've posted. Watch those as inspiration for what not to do.
Welcome back to the site.
Position behind the boat on the offside is awkward and scary because IT IS awkward and scary. We naturally get in a defensive position across the wakes on the off-side because our mind ignores the fact that we are hanging onto a power source and that power source is a pretty unique aspect of waterskiing relative to most sports.
Our mind has to un-learn that defensive position and for most people that TAKES TIME. Maybe I'm just a bonehead but in my journey into 34mph and shorter lines NO tip (and we're talking 8 ski school trips, tons of coaching, and running this site) gave me insta-results as far as comfort behind the boat. It's been time, repetition, and more time. Part of un-learning the defensive reflex is to be comfortable having angle to the water with the body behind the boat on the off-side. It's a really weird feeling when you start truly feeling that lean on the off-side. You'll get used to it.
Another aspect is fear of true speed and accelleration. With proper angle you get what feels like crazy speed behind the boat. Being comfy with that speed and learning to love it is a big part of this. Again, time.
For me, exit of my off-side turn was key to feeling that off-side lean/angle (to the water). You learn to kinda throw your hips/core into the wake. Looking at video of recent passes, even if I totally break over out of my 1/3/5 I will still throw my core across the wake first which gets me across SAFELY.
I will say one helpful tip was from April Coble-Eller. She had a great visual of pretending there is a box with 4 quadrants directly over your head. In the top left quadrant is your ski, in the bottom right quadrant is your body. (picture S as your ski and B as your body below going from 1 to 2 ball):
S X
X B
OTF falls are NO JOKE. I've personally had 2 blown eardrums from them and witnessed at least 3 others. They are truly devastating falls. In many cases these falls are from "trying" to do it "right" too much. Rushing the process can put you into positions that you may think are correct but are even more dangerous- I have had plenty of big bell ringers from trying so hard to "stack" properly when my turn finish gave me no chance of correcting anything behind the boat.
Don't get discouraged and don't rush it. You will get there. Just keep skiing.
Thanks everyone for your comments. The reason for my delay in response is that I was up north for our 2 week holiday at our cottage near Parry Sound. Unfortunately, I spent half of that holiday in hospital. Yep, ski accident....here's the story.
Firstly, on the Tuesday I went out skiing with my buddies who are pretty good skiers and they were reinforcing many of the comments you guys have made re my offside. So I was trying (too hard) on one of my pulls and basically buried the ski tip in the trough after the 2nd wake and hit the water really hard with head, shoulder, and chest. Ski stopped dead in the water and I blew out of both bindings no problem. But I was pretty winded. I got back on the horse and skied home more gently.
On Saturday, a friend came over on his SeaDoo and just for a lark I asked him for a pull. Assuming the SeaDoo had limited power I made the (fateful) decision to use my old combo slalom ski that I haven't used in 4 years, thinking that the longer wider ski would assist with pullout. No problem as it turned out. I skied around a bit and then headed for home. NATURALLY, I wanted to spray everyone who was sitting in my boat moored at my dock. After doing my final cut toward my dock and releasing the rope I discovered that this ski would not turn like my D3. So I made the split second decision pop the front of the ski up (back foot pressure) and spin and land on my back to basically bail. Unfortunately, my back hit the water and I skipped like a stone and slammed into the ladder on the back of my own boat.
I broke ribs #8 and #9 on the posterior right side. Two minutes later my lung collapsed. I had to be bodyboarded out of the water to hospital. Chest tube to re-inflate the lung, etc.
The CT techician just happened to mention that not only was my right lung collapsed (pneumothorax) but it also had a contusion on the front side of the lung....uh huh I said to myself...I know when that happened...on my Tuesday crash.
I am out of it now for probably 2 months. Pretty much ruined my skiing for this summer and most every other activity too.
I am quite depressed about the whole sordid affair. I know that the two incidents are not related but I'm either going to give it up or I'm going to press through to solve this offside issue. But I can't keep doing what I'm doing....my 55 year old body is at some risk even though I'm very fit.
That's some scary stuff there dwallar. Sorry, but the first thing that comes to my mind is, "What were you thinking?!!" I'm 55 too and know of a ton of ways to get hurt in this sport without self inflicting it. Anyway, I hope you recover fast.
About that offside turn though, why don't you take a vacation to one of the warm ski schools this winter after you recover? You'll have fun, get out of the cold weather, and will learn more than you can imagine. Coaching at our age (in any sport) is critical so we don't waste precious time doing it wrong and then having to relearn.
Hi Deke. Thanks. Actually I am a member of a private ski club near my home and have a coach who has certainly been trying to get me to unlearn all the wrong things and do the right things that you guys have been also reinforcing I need to do. Joel put it well though when he said that the bottom line is time, time, time. Time on the water...no substitute. I'm probably not getting anywhere near enough. That's why I'm tempted to just pack it in. To get the time is expensive.
Assuming I did want to do a warm ski school, which one would you recommend. I know that Seth Stisher is amazing but he isn't exactly in the warm part of the US is he?
I've been to Ski Paradise in Acapulco. It's spendy but wow! Great food, accomodations, site, coaching. Probably the ultimate. Definately was once in a lifetime for me. I have friends that also went to Waterski Costa Rica and loved that too.
Seth's would be great in the spring. And Charleston is really a nice place. I went in the fall.
I have not been anywhere in Florida. Perhaps someone else could chime in? Also, Joel goes to Bennett's in the spring. There are some writeups on this website.
I'd like to hear other's take on this as well because I'm due for another trip.
Brutal news on the ribs and lung. I've had 2 blown ear drums at ski school TRYING to get the right position behind the boat so I know exactly what you're talking about. As I mentioned in my last post, trying too hard to do it right can unfortunately result in some brutal spills.
When I broke my #5 rib in 2011 it was fully, 100% broken in half and the two ends would sickeningly click and snap as I moved around. That was an OTF into the wake out of a turn (not across the wake). Brutal. I can't believe the rib healed, but it did without any outside intervention at all.
I would not get discouraged but instead work on free-skiing and maybe even think about a new ski. A new ski might force some new feelings through the system and turn some lightbulbs on for you.
Deke- definitely doing Ski Paradise for our 10yr anniversary- 3 more years to go!!!
Hi Guys,
I finally got the video and edited it for YouTube. Here's the link but will embed below if I can remember how. My coach tells me that the mistake I made was trying to change direction. I was proceeding to my right and tried to turn left. He said any ski I was on (including my D3) would have kicked up like that and given my speed, would have resulted in the same things...oy vay.
I just noticed that my video was not public so you guys haven't been able to see my famous crash back in July. I guess that's why more people haven't weighed in and told me how dumb that was and that I'm not 15 anymore or something like that!!
Anyway, it's viewable now. Let me know Josh if you can't see it.
So it's been three months since then and today I did something that was like a dream...I went to the club (Summerski) and skied!! It was 20C here in the Toronto area and the club was still open. I felt that I really wanted to end the season with just one ski so out I went. I've been running for awhile now (back up to 10 kms) but hadn't skied. I did 6 passes with one at 32 mph and I perfectly shadowed all 6 balls and got both gates too. It felt great....so now, I feel I can look forward to the Spring.
Hey...if you're gonna do stuff like that, at least let the video run so we can see the agony of the moments afterwards.
Seriously, don't be doing stuff like that, that could have been your last day skiing....ever.
Oh, I did not enjoy watching that. The boat is not a bouy.
Hope you are on the mend.
Hi Guys,
I'm new to this site and what a great site...I like the fact that it's for "the rest of us" although at 22 off, Joel, you're fast becoming "not one of us"!
I'm nearly 55 years old and have been skiing since I was 9. But basically a cottage hacker and had no clue about what serious slalom skiing entails. That was until I discovered a private ski club right near where I live in Newmarket, Ontario. I skiied there last year as a guest and joined this year.
Wake crossings, especially my off-side (I'm LFF) proved to be my undoing. I was an accident (read OTF crash) just waiting to happen. After a whole summer of coaching I seem to be able to hold a fairly good body position at 15 off and 32 mph but I still tend to let the rope out (ie shoulders come forward) as I hit the 2nd spray line. Turns are OK but still learning to counter rotate and all that. I am shadowing the balls at 15 off and 32.
I thought I'd be clever and drop the speed to 30 in the hopes that I could run the balls. What a disaster. I've never had such a bad time skiing as I did last night. It's back to 32 and shadowing for me. I seemed to forget everything I know when I got the idea in my head that it would be easy to go around those balls at 30.
So for me right now I am working again on correct body position in the wake crossing and using my hips to turn instead of my shoulders. There's so many things to remember I sometimes feel like it's overload.
Anybody else out there struggling like me?
Printer-friendly versionYou are in the RIGHT place. There are a lot of tips and tricks to getting through the wake (keep digging on this site for sure!) but a lot of it is going to be water time. At 30 the water gets squishy and impatience will have direct consequences. Let's see some video!
Welcome, dwaller! Ditto what Joel said. A hard time at 30 kinda shows that you've been hanging and pulling on the rope at 32 which is why you can only shadow at 32. What I would do (did) is slow down as slow as it takes to ski around the buoys, more like 28 mph. From there, work on your position and timing until you can spin back to backs nice and smooth. You'll find that it doesn't take hardly any effort at all but you'll need to be super smooth. The plus is you are able to actually think, recover from mistakes and stay in the course instead of practising not going around the buoys or falling. I did this for a whole summer and made it my baseline pass.
Work on correct position ALL THE TIME. When you're following the boat, going around the turn island, walking around the house, everywhere. It does not mean pulling or pushing on something, it means having your hips forward over your front foot and being tall. It means being balanced forward to back and side to side and not needing the rope to hold you up. It means visualizing your hips leading the way and having the pull of the boat come through there (when it comes).
How do I post video Joel? I have the video on my camera at the moment. I can upload it to iMovie on my MacBook Pro as well but how do I get it on to the site. It would be interesting because you can really see the difference between my attempts at running the balls at 30 and going back to shadowing at 32. I'm much smoother at shadowing at 32. But let me know how to upload the video.
Thanks, Don
I agree with all the advice. I have always thought the best way to progress was to slow the boat down and learn the pass before speeding everything up. I will have to say the only issue with slowing down is that sometimes the wake gets larger. I am still riding behind a SeaRay I/O and below about 28 it sometimes resmebles wakeboarding more than slalom skiing!!
I will have to say that once you can run the course it at least builds confidence and I think even makes the whole thing more fun. I have read alot of tips where even some pros slow down or even use a wider ski to learn something so they can progress and work on things. At the slower speeds you can have time to think and react much more than 32 or more. The falls also tend to hurt less!
To add a video, first get the video uploaded to YouTube. Then, take the link to that video once it's uploaded to YouTube and put it into the YouTube field at the bottom of your diary entry edit form. Done!
Thanks for the "how to" Joel. I uploaded two videos...the first is me trying the run the balls at 30mph and as you will all see I really suck. Crunching at the waist, entire ski out of the water, shoulders not back, hips not forward, terrible.
The 2nd video I went back to what I've been doing which is shadowing at 32mph. I forgot about the balls and just focused on technique. I seem a bit smoother but if you ask me, an entire summer of coaching hasn't brought me nearly as far as I had hoped to be. Not my coaches fault...he's outstanding...it's just having to unlearn 44 years of cottage hacking. My biggest issue seems to be the hips, always has been. I just feel so uncomfortable when I "do it right". It feels really awkward but my coach keeps telling me that it's supposed to feel awkward. If I go for comfortable, I crunch at the waist and fight the boat.
I know what I'm doing wrong, I just don't seem to be able to overcome this hips thing.
Videos are set to private, can't see them.
Sorry about that. Try them now.
Don
We often make slalom harder than it has to be, me included. Deke has given a lot of good advice. I would say a lot of similar things but I'll try to put a different twist on things. When you move, move gently. Get away from trying to put pressure on the line. Most people loose the most ground after the center line. When approaching the wakes try pushing the core (stomach/hips) in the direction you're trying to go while at the same time trying to be tall (ideally the handle should be on the trailing hip/upper thigh at the centerline). Move gently/progressively into and out of this position...the idea is to keep tension on the rope at all times. The ideal situation is for the tension to be the greatest at the boat centerline and the least just prior to the apex, but strive for a straight rope at all times.This way the rope is always assisting you and helping to control your movements. The idea behind not leaning to much is so that the rope does not pull you in after the second wake. You want to be able to slowly feed the handle from your thigh area to the reaching position at your turn apex so that your speed changes slowly instead of abruptly (that's why you want rope tension, so the boat is still assisting you).
One of the biggest keys is balance as Deke indicated, most people if they squat their butt moves to the back and the pull/load comes from the shoulders. Contrary to that if you stand tall over both feet and keep the elbows against the vest the load moves to the elbow contact point...if at that point you then get the handle down around the upper thigh the load moves to the core....pushing with the core in your wake crossings glues that connection together, squatting will separate that connection.
Now squatting for whatever reason seems like a safe way to ski when you're on the water but it's not. Core connected is absolutely the safest way to cross the wakes and the most efficient...the key is to able to be core connected without the load so that you can control the handle out to the next buoy.
Pay attention to your rope tension and it will tell you a lot about how to ski smartly, safely and efficiently.
I will say this FWIW- I really like the wake cross from 1 to 2 in the first video. Seems like you get the center of mass through the wake nicely on that particular cross.
Thanks Blackdog. Yeah, my coach has drummed into my head about progressively increasing my lean with the strongest right behind the boat. I have a tendency to fall into the turn too hard, get buried too deep, and then when the pull comes I tend to let the rope out as I crunch and bring my shoulders forward. ie the boat wins.
He talks to me about the "hinge" between my arms and my core. I need to close the hinge and, of course, this is my struggle. So I have some questions. It seems to me that given that the rope is always essentially parallel to the water, the only way to "close the hinge" ie bring the handle close to your hips, is to fall further away from the handle. Is my basic problem that I am simply not leaning far enough away? It is physically impossible to bring the handle down to your hips if you're standing up tall or only leaning away 10 degrees or so. Is my problem that I think I am leaning when in actual fact I am not even close to really leaning? He also stresses bending the knees as it does help bring the handle down but only if you are already leaning...
Am I on the right track here?
When I look at pics of the pros their backs are almost parallel to the water so naturally the handle is low.
Man, you ask tough questions....I'll try to answer as best I can. The first thing I would say is learn to move by learning to drive your hips/core through the handle/rope. From spray to spray, keep your elbows against your vest, with your handle as close to your trailing thigh as you can. Try to close the hinge without a bunch of lean...the more you lean, the more stretch/pressure you will put on the rope...the more pressure you put on the rope, the harder it is to control the rope after you cross the centerline, if you can't control the line after the centerline, slalom will be difficult. Loose line heading into the turns will be a series of hits at the end of the turns, hits will make it difficult to accelerate cleanly which will make it more difficult into the next turn.
Also excessive lean will make it difficult to drive your core into the rope/handle because of the pressure on the ski (the pressure won't allow the ski to move forward easily). It all starts with the first move. Move softly but progessively, when you turn, take your time turning in, load progressively but not excessively. When people say to load the most behind the boat, don't increase your lean, to me me it means close up your hinge tighter (using your hinge analogy). Think about this, lean is necessary to some degree, but with more lean comes more resistance, more resistance decreases ski advancement (outward). After the second wake you still want the rope to be pulling on you enough to keep line tension, as long as you have rope tension you are getting help from the boat to go wider. If you have loaded to hard it will pull the handle away to soon and line tension will be lost (so will your help from the boat). If you lose line tension before the apex, your chances of falling into the turn increase dramatically. If you fall into the turn, there's no progressive load, it's all instant and that's not good.
My thoughts on knee bend go like this. Most people that think knee bend are just sitting on the back of their ski. Proper knee bend will help you get your core into the handle. Proper knee bend (in my opinion) is a slight knee bend (enough to keep from locking out the knees) where the ankles have a slight bend forward so that the knees are stacked over the front toe (think knees forward), this will allow the core to move ahead...it kind of feels like the body has a slight bow where the front toe, the front knee and the naval form a line. Proper knee bend is not squatting, it frees the core to move forward.
If your trying to lean like you think some skiers are doing that could be what is hindering you. I know that thought has caused problems in my skiing.
Also don't take me or anyone else to literally when you're being directed to do something. We are trying to use how we think about it to help you, but ultimately you have to figure out how your mind processes what's going on out there. Hope some of this helps.
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I think it's a fine
I think it's a fine suggestion. I want to stress again that crossing the wake confidently is something that will only come with water time, and lots of it. Along the way, there are going to be OTF falls, however, one day they will end. And that will be it. As crazy as we get about pre-turn, angle, direction, blah blah blah at the end of the day what gets you from -15 at slow speeds to skiing 34 or 36 and cutting line is being able to pull just as hard/confidently one way as you do the other. I truly feel that that is IT. This is something I see a lot of pros, coaches, and well-wishing-boat-buddies forget consistently. It's been so long since that off-side wake cross was truly terrifying to them that they forget how hard that fear is to un-learn. A big part of it is being comfortable with, and craving SPEED. It'll come. Keep skiing and it'll happen. I'm getting sick of articles and posts on "body position" when it is truly something that has to be felt and learned via muscle memory and water time. The guys writing those posts have long, long forgotten how they learned that position.
I agree totally
Joel, I really think you have hit the nail on the head. This summer is the first time I have noticed less of a difference in the 'off' side and 'on' side and I even did a diary entry titled "offside?" This difference has lead to more consistancy, higher buoy counts and higher speeds.
FWIW, Seth's whips drill can get you going in the right direction. I did alot more open water skiing early in the year, only focusing on the wake crossing without buoys, and it really seemed to pay dividends in the course later!
You can do it! Keep at it.I
You can do it! Keep at it.
I can see some benefit to working on this in the open water (at -15) where you don't have to worry about making balls but I'm not sure shortening the rope to -28 is going to be easier. The shorter length will make things feel faster and it might tend to make you more narrow. I agree that more time behind the boat is what helps this. The craving for speed will come. I felt that craving this year...finally. You have to just say #%$@ it! I'm going to rip this thing and if I go OTF, so be it. Do I still give everyone a good show with an occasional OTF? Yes! That is what makes skiing exciting. But my fear of it is less and therefore I'm getting better and doing it less. A great man once said "If you are not falling, you are not pushing yourself enough."
Still one of my favorite videos.....1:47 is the best!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWYb3uDzb0