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Back Arm Pressure Options
jhughes
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:00:40 PM

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The back arm refers to the furthest arm from the ball that you are approaching. Thus, in going from 1 ball to 2 ball, your right arm would be your back arm. They say when crossing the wake you should focus on keeping more pressure on this arm rather than your leading arm.
blackdog
Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 1:19:53 PM

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How many of you know this? How many of you regard this as a basic fundamental focal
point in your skiing? Unfortunately for me this has been bounced around to different arms
being the back arm for as long as I can remember. Joel has this right in his definition.
If you can make this and leading with your mid section a basis for everything you do
skiing wise, make it part of your "panic package" and "scramble mode" you will have a
strong foundation for skiing success. The idea behind this is put yourself in a more
balanced accelerating position. You will find that your wake crossings are much more
solid. This will allow you to "twist load" which will move your hips over your feet
(the product of opening your shoulders to the boat). With your hips over your feet
the ski attitude will be more level (more tip down). The product of more tip down is
more direction, more direction is more space at the buoy.

Okay now the catch! You need to do this by moving the mid section with level head and
shoulders. If you don't, you will have a big a$$ crash. The turn is a move...not a rotation,
If you can do this you will have more fun skiing then you ever had in your life and most of
you on here will gain anywhere from 12 to 24 buoys in short order. But you will need
to be persistent and patient to create the correct moves and then make them habits.
If you're looking for 2 buoys or 3 buoys to get thru a speed or a line length and your
trying to hack your way there, it will be a long hard road to skiing's promise land. If
you will find a speed or line you're kind of comfortable with and can work on these things
and get them right, and then repeat them over and over, you'll be rewarded. That doesn't
mean don't ever test yourself by going up the line as far as you can go. But if you do that
every set I think you're doing more harm then good, because you're trying to use
techniques that have proven themselves to be inefficient.

I am a skier that has had every crappy habit in the book, I hacked and
whacked and banged my way from running everything from 30 mph/15 off to
running thru 35 and 38 and bounced off everything in the way
along the way. I found out how to do it somewhat in 2004 and then went back thru
every bad habit again. My joints and body felt so bad that I considered giving up
skiing several times in the last several years. It started out that way this year but I
decided I would just keep trying stuff until I could find something that would get me
jump started, I read interviews of great skiers, I asked questions of people who
could run serious buoys, I daydreamed skiing a lot and did a lot of mental replays
of what I was feeling on the water after I skied (when I could slow it down). The only
thing I really haven't done is video (I always hate what I see on video, I think I try
to fix to much, to quick). I try to be a feel skier but I will probably do some soon.
The point of this rambling message is that I have boiled mine down to the 2 basics
above, I'm very confident that if you aren't currently using these they will give you
lots of buoys. And also to say if I can do this stuff you can too! Happy Skiing!
2gofaster
Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:25:31 PM
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Marcus Brown says a good way to know if you have enough counter rotation behind the boat is if you can feel the back arm pressure(as Joel says, the one opposite from the buoy you're riding towards). He says if you have back arm pressure, you have your hips countered correctly. He had us telling him at the end of the lake on every pass which pulls behind the boat we felt the back arm pressure and which ones we jacked up and didn't. I am finding this to be one of the most critical mechanics of my skiing now and is one of the reason I've picked up 2 full passes in the last year. Once I really started concentrating on this mechanic, I found that I then had a real edge change and preturn rather than skiing at the ball and edge change right into a turn.

Shane Hill
blackdog
Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:39:06 PM

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Thank you for making my point about picking up 2 whole passes and for adding that
point about a preturn, to me it makes for a long long preturn and that's part of the
problem....what to do with all that extra time before the ball. I'm assuming you have a
pretty level shouldered hip leading turn.
T-fromTO
Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:30:59 PM
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To further your point, we only have one 38 off skier in our club and he's always on about back arm pressure. That's the only thing he seems to want to say when he's giving advice.
2gofaster
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 7:38:15 AM
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blackdog wrote:
Thank you for making my point about picking up 2 whole passes and for adding that
point about a preturn, to me it makes for a long long preturn and that's part of the
problem....what to do with all that extra time before the ball. I'm assuming you have a
pretty level shouldered hip leading turn.


Yes, that's been the hardest transition. I'm finding the preturn is now longer than the turn and pull. At first I'd get out there and stand up and dick it up just because I had so much time. What made it come alive was learning some handle and hip control. Marcus pointed out that I continuously ski'd with my hips dropped. Once I started out prior to the pull out with my hips way up, standing tall over the front of my ski, and with my shoulders in almost an exagerated shrug back, I found that the back arm pressure pull just shot me off the 2nd wake into that long, long preturn into 1. Marcus really beat it into us that we needed to keep our hips up over our front foot. Another benefit of that has been that I've found my upper body is very still now.

Shane Hill
2gofaster
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 7:41:16 AM
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T-fromTO wrote:
To further your point, we only have one 38 off skier in our club and he's always on about back arm pressure. That's the only thing he seems to want to say when he's giving advice.


You should listen to him. I've become convinced that the turn will happen almost on autopilot if you put the ski in the right place at the center of the wake in the pull.

Shane Hill
blackdog
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 8:03:06 AM

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2gofaster wrote:
T-fromTO wrote:
To further your point, we only have one 38 off skier in our club and he's always on about back arm pressure. That's the only thing he seems to want to say when he's giving advice.


You should listen to him. I've become convinced that the turn will happen almost on autopilot if you put the ski in the right place at the center of the wake in the pull.


Words from my mind, but I think it needs to coexist with a level head/shoulder "center of
mass" leading turn. If I were trying to make a living teaching slalom skiing, I would only
teach those 2 things until they were second nature. But to me they are a chicken and egg
relationship. In order for 1 to be truly effective, I think the other needs to be linked.
Terry_In_NC
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 8:47:09 AM
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I know it maybe a chicken and egg thing but I believe back arm pressure can only be effectively applied IF you have the handle low and on the trailing/back hip with relaxed arms just as the boat starts its pull on you. Right hip going from 1 to 2.

If you have the handle there then the pull from the boat is behind, i.e. trailing, your center of mass. This accomplishes three things. First of all, with all the angles and stuff there is actually a component of that pull from the boat that is actually pushing your COM towards the wakes allowing you to accelerate.

Secondly, with the handle on the trailing/back hip it puts your back arm directly in line with the pull from the boat allowing you to really apply the pressure to hold it there. Try placing the handle on the other hip, reach across your body to get the handle and then try to apply the back arm pressure. You probably can't do it. You are probably fighting to save an OTF.

Thirdly, with the handle in that trailing hip position your right side of your body (going from 1 to 2) acts as a pivot point. Think of the hinges on a door with the handle being the hinge and your body being the door. With level eyes and level shoulders open to the boat you can easily apply back arm pressure, counter rotate around that pivot point some more, shift your COM more towards the wake and really accelerate without loading the line! It doesn't take much.

Just my thoughts.
blackdog
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 9:25:17 AM

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Terry_In_NC wrote:
I know it maybe a chicken and egg thing but I believe back arm pressure can only be effectively applied IF you have the handle low and on the trailing/back hip with relaxed arms just as the boat starts its pull on you. Right hip going from 1 to 2.



Secondly, with the handle on the trailing/back hip it puts your back arm directly in line with the pull from the boat allowing you to really apply the pressure to hold it there. Try placing the handle on the other hip, reach across your body to get the handle and then try to apply the back arm pressure. You probably can't do it.


Even if you don't get it (trailing arm pressure) when you get your hand back on the handle,
it (load) can be relocated at any time if you're paying attention to it. To me that's half the
ability to correct it....If you can become aware that it (line pressure/load) is misplaced
(on leading arm) and distribute it to the trailing arm between the ball and the wake
centerline you are well on your way to getting this right. If I can start a pass bad and clean
it up along the way and finish it early, that's almost as good as owning it in my book,
because quite often, that's what tournament skiing is all about.
Terry_In_NC
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 9:56:18 AM
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blackdog wrote:
(load) can be relocated at any time if you're paying attention to it. To me that's half the ability to correct it....If you can become aware that it (line pressure/load) is misplaced (on leading arm) and distribute it to the trailing arm between the ball and the wake centerline you are well on your way to getting this right. If I can start a pass bad and clean it up along the way and finish it early, that's almost as good as owning it in my book, because quite often, that's what tournament skiing is all about.


I think this is where your experience comes into play. I don't know If I can think fast enough to fix a problem. Oh, I know when I am in trouble but the end result is either a crash or just skiing out the pass behind the boat.

This is probably what separates skiers like you from skiers like me. You have the experience to fix a botched pass while I just try to survive it.

I asked Will Asher how he saved his 38 off pass at the Masters. If you look at the video there should be no way he was going to complete that pass. His reply was something like, "Yeah, that's what people tell me. I don't know how I made it!" Well, he does know how he made it he just did it instinctively without thinking. This is what makes the great ones. Nobody does it right all the time but the ability to save a bad situation takes talent and lots of experience based in lots of practice.
2gofaster
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:00:17 AM
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You are able to apply back arm pressure, keep your shoulders level, head up, etc only when your hips are open to the boat. If your hips are not open to the boat, you can do some of these but not all. Same thing in the preturn/turn. You are able to keep your shoulders level and head up because of the rotation of your hips away from the boat. I always thought counter rotation was from the waiste up, when in reality it starts at the ankles, encompasses the hips, and finishes at the shoulders. I heard one of the higher rated Big Dawg skiers tell someone the other day that he didn't car what her shoulders did. He cared what her hips did. He said her shoulders would follow her hips because that is basic physiology. That was an interesting thought.

Shane Hill
blackdog
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 12:30:26 PM

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Terry_In_NC wrote:
blackdog wrote:
(load) can be relocated at any time if you're paying attention to it. To me that's half the ability to correct it....If you can become aware that it (line pressure/load) is misplaced (on leading arm) and distribute it to the trailing arm between the ball and the wake centerline you are well on your way to getting this right. If I can start a pass bad and clean it up along the way and finish it early, that's almost as good as owning it in my book, because quite often, that's what tournament skiing is all about.


I think this is where your experience comes into play. I don't know If I can think fast enough to fix a problem. Oh, I know when I am in trouble but the end result is either a crash or just skiing out the pass behind the boat.

This is probably what separates skiers like you from skiers like me. You have the experience to fix a botched pass while I just try to survive it.

I asked Will Asher how he saved his 38 off pass at the Masters. If you look at the video there should be no way he was going to complete that pass. His reply was something like, "Yeah, that's what people tell me. I don't know how I made it!" Well, he does know how he made it he just did it instinctively without thinking. This is what makes the great ones. Nobody does it right all the time but the ability to save a bad situation takes talent and lots of experience based in lots of practice.


That's part of the reason I harp on slow speed and long line practice, part of it is
repeat , repeat, repeat so it becomes "panic mode". Then it's where's my focus, to me
I try to focus on a deficiency that will give me the most results, trailing arm pressure
is one of my 2 basics that I really pay attention to, when I first started paying attention
to it I would recognize it about half way to the centerline, then think about adjusting it
by the time I should be releasing the lower body pressure, too late! but still start adjusting
it somewhere near the second wake. Then after the pass I would go thru a little checklist
of what I could remember during the pass. Then try it again, and slowly you sharpen
your abilities to "fix it on the fly". The point being I practice trying to fix my screwups
as they occur, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Another practice (along the same lines) I adopted around 2004 was the replaying in my head of my passes, what
felt good, what felt bad and what I needed to concentrate on the next pass. When I first
started doing this I couldn't remember very much but now sometimes if I pay enough
attention I can remember almost every turn, every load, where I was looking, what
I saw, etc, etc.
line
jhughes
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 1:16:25 PM

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Do we talk about some awesome stuff on this board or what? Thumbs Up
Deke
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:18:40 PM

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2gofaster wrote:
Once I started out prior to the pull out with my hips way up, standing tall over the front of my ski, and with my shoulders in almost an exagerated shrug back, I found that the back arm pressure pull just shot me off the 2nd wake into that long, long preturn into 1. Marcus really beat it into us that we needed to keep our hips up over our front foot. Another benefit of that has been that I've found my upper body is very still now.

Great stuff here...

Shane I was inspired by your post about Marcus and "load management" earlier this week and wound up having this epiphany Wednesday night while I was working on pull-outs/turn-ins while freeskiing. First I felt the "tall" move with arms low during the pull-out and ended up squirting out with very little effort. I then discovered the same thing on my way to the 1 ball side and eventually had it going both ways. My focus was all about being over the front foot and using my mass to drive everything from the waist down, sort of like stepping into it. The picture I was keeping in my mind was the video of Marcus skiing at 30 mph on this site. What surprised me most was that I actually had an edge change going into my onside which is unusual for me and how easily I got wide off the wake.

I have to say this is one of the benefits of freeskiing. You can make as many of these turns as you can stand until you start to feel it. In this case it started out as a drill and wound up being linked turns. No worries about buoys, just trying to get a handle on the sensation. Hopefully I can translate this to the course this weekend. Unsure

Deke
2gofaster
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 4:19:59 PM
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Deke, I'm glad to hear that you got something from my trials and tribulations. Smile I hope that my explanations of how I have learned to apply these mechanics doesn't confuse anyone. One of my biggest struggles in learning was that a lot of "teachers" don't know how to break these mechanics down into something that can be understood by a skier on a lower level. It's one thing to say "you need to counter-rotate". But when you follow that with "and this is how you do that", it's completely different. I found with myself that a coach would say "do X" and I'd say OK, without really understanding how I was supposed to accomplish X. Even last night, a light bulb went off on the water and I got something new.


Shane Hill
Falcon Eddie
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 8:06:25 PM
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Explain the "tall move." Did you refer to it in an earlier post?
Deke
Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:01:15 AM

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Falcon Eddie wrote:
Explain the "tall move." Did you refer to it in an earlier post?

I was just rephrasing Shane about really getting up over the front foot with shoulders shrugged back and hands low. It's a proud position.
blackdog
Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 7:24:14 AM

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As I have said previously, depending on who you ask, back arm pressure means different
things to different skiers, after my last week of skiing I think both camps are right.....
so what does this mean?.......I don't know! But here's what I'm trying to do, balanced arm
pressure to some degree. Years ago I interpreted back arm pressure at the shoulders, so
my thinking was going into 1,3,5 the pressure needed to be on the right shoulder....
WRONG!! It doesn't need to be on the left shoulder either. It needs to come thru the trunk,
the core, the center of mass, the hips. How do you do that? Well I contacted an orthopedic
surgeon to see if he could attach my elbows to my hip bones and he said that couldn't be
done. So now I'm trying to squeeze my elbows into my sides from the spray line to the
spray line, when I do this long enough (side to side) I get some blazing speed, desired
direction off the wakes, rock solid line and often arrive at the other side, wide of the buoys,
earlier than I've been in years, with 2 hands still on the handle.

In skiing this way, I've discovered 2 problems...the most important being that my brain
(self programmed skiing reaction) doesn't want me skiing connected that long. So what
happens? I often release to soon (where I've released most of the last several years,
somewhere before I leave the spray line) and now when I do release to soon, I know it
(but I can't put the toothpaste back in tube)....so I know I won't be as early/wide as I
should be. The other thing that's happening is my down course vision needs work.
Nothing new about that, but with an earlier/wider line, I'm starting to work on that a little
more, but I need to evaluate it at each end. I think I'll write it on my arm with a Sharpie
today.

Another great thing about this, I don't think about edge change, I just power through it
and I don't think about counter, it just releases you off the handle when you let go, you
just better be ready to be wide and early, cause it's gonna happen. It's intense work,
probably more work than I've ever put into slalom, the toughest part is the trust with
staying connected that long.
2gofaster
Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:08:26 AM
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It's been almost a year since I posted on this last. I feel much more balanced now. Rather than being biased to the back arm, I have now gravitated to a very nuetral stance. Both on the ski and on the handle. I kind of think this is a natural progression. You almost have to bias to the back arm for a while, to get the muscle memory to allow your body to relax and go nuetral. I've found where you start with this balance before the turn in for the gates is very important. If I'm nuetral there, I'm nuetral the entire pass. If I'm on the front of the ski, the back of the ski, or don't square to 2,4,6 it's a teeter totter ride for the entire pass. Once you're in the course, it's almost possible to get your balance back, you'll almost always alternate from one extreme to the other.

BD, like you, I'm working on vision now. I've had moments of greatness and they almost always have a wide field of vision that go along with them. I think that's because as you spot that next turn ball in front of the boat, your entire body aligns itself correctly and your core mass goes that direction. Marcus has a short video clip where he talks about this on the waterski mag web page. It's something I had been thinking about a lot after skiing with Jodi Fisher last year and Marcus reinforced it.

That just goes to show you that these fundamentals are somewhat universal, no matter the style. I can see this after skiing with MarcusBrown a couple of times last year, Jodi Fisher a couple of times last year, and now Charles Mueller all this spring and early summer. They all have different styles, but the mechanics they teach are essentially the same. Balanced stance, balanced load on the handle, head up, shoulders level, core leading the way. Charles does add "Lean you pu$$y!!!" a lot, though. hahahaha

Shane Hill
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